You Decide #21
Tuesday, November 22, 2005
My You Decide posts are coming fast and furious. I personally like them because it is an opportunity for people to discuss intricacies of the game that you may not be able to discuss as clearly from a broad explanation alone. Here is a case where (I believe) a pre-flop raise was the crucial issue in the hand. I don't think I would have done it any differently, except for maybe calling the bet on the end. But the real question is, when you are at a low limit table and hold a middle pocket pair such as 99 in the SB, and everyone has already limped, will a pre-flop raise thin the herd, build the pot for you, or build the pot against you, creating an incentive for others to stay in AND costing you additional dough that you will likely lose. Here is the hand:
It is my 3rd hand at a 2/4 limit table. I don't have any reads yet. I am in the 1 seat and post the SB of $1 and get 99. UTG calls. MP calls. The CO had posted theBB and checked. The button calls. I call. BB checks.
The flop is 8d 6c 8h. I bet $2. BB and UTG fold. MP calls. CO folds. Button calls.
The turn is Jd for a board of [8d 6c 8h][Jd]. I check. MP bets. Button calls. I call.
The river is a Js for a board of [8d 6c 8h Jd][Js]. I check, MP checks, and Button bets. I call. MP folds.
Button shows 8c Qd (A Full House, Eights full of Jacks).
Button collected $36.25 from Main pot
So, would the pre-flop raise get him out of there. Should I have folded on the turn or river bets? I don't think so on any of these questions, because of pot odds and the probability of someone playing A6, AK, etc. BUT, what do I know. I lost $12 on this hand.
No matter how far, I will bluff you!
posted by Jordan @ 10:29 PM,
- At 8:56 AM, GaryC said...
You know as well as I do that "Mr. Q-8" isn't going anywhere in this hand. I think a raise might thin this field, but with 9-9, I don't raise in this instance and I probably get away after the two 8's hit the board.
I could see myself calling them down though also. As usual, this hand is an "it depends" hand and since you had no reads on anyone, I would have probably folded after the flop when no 9 came.
- At 9:33 AM, Dnasty13 said...
I agree, he is playing no matter what u do. In limit I think limping here is the correct play. After the turn, my hand is in the trash, a bet and a call in front of me tells me I am beat. Especially with no read on these two players. That is just my opinion though
- At 9:45 AM, kipper said...
I would have seen the flop. Checked post-flop to see if I could get free look at the turn card. My guess he would have slowplayed his set if you did not bet after the flop. There is nothing good about the hand after the J falls on the turn.
- At 10:37 AM, TripJax said...
Erm, what they said up there.
Hey, on a different subject, did you add something to the template cause everything is listed at the bottom now. Just wondering. If you'll let me know what you did I'll see if I can't fix it to where the additions stay, but everything is back in order...
- At 11:14 AM, WillWonka said...
In my humble opinion, I would have probably lost more money than you; but is that to say that you played it better?
Again, in my humble opinion, you probably played too passively. I'm OK with the call preflop. I'm also OK with the Q8 guys call as it most likely 6 handed giving him good odds... His good played stopped there.. Anyway, back to you... I agree with the bet on the flop.. but don't necessarily like the check on the turn. Yes, you are out of position and of course we know now that Q8 ain't going anywhere... but what he might do is raise you there and then you can feel good about a fold. The check shows weakness and opens up the pot to any bluff where you would now be on the defensive.. unless you check-raised.. which you didn't.
River card is a scare card and check calling might be OK there.
But what do I know..
- At 11:26 AM, Jordan from HighOnPoker said...
Great comments. Keep em coming. Interesting how Wonka has a different view than everyone else. I think he makes some great points about being too passive. But I would suggest it was for a (slightly) different reason.
If I bet on the turn and get raised, then I can fold. That could have saved me the river bet.
Wonka also mentioned that if I check, I'm inviting a bluff to take me out of the hand. I had no intention of folding to a bet. In fact, I often pull this move, where I can already work out (for the most part) how much a hand will cost me to see it to the river. Obviously, this is purely a Limit strategy. The pot had about $18 in it at the turn. I factored in a bet on the turn and river and was willing to pay $8 to see the results (remember it isn't $8 for $18, but really $8 for $26 assuming one bettor and the other guy folds, $8 for $34 if one bets and the other calls, etc.). If there was a bet-raise, I'd fold. So I wasn't going to be bluffed out absent a raise-bluff which is rare, especially two-handed.
As for the other comments, consensus is for folding post-flop. I thought, at the time, that a bet would thin the herd and tell me where I was. A decent pocket pair with a board of a low pair and a low kicker seemed good, but in hindisght maybe I should have been playing for the set. Oh well oh well.
Keep your comments coming, because this is clearly a questionable situation.
- At 12:35 PM, Veneno said...
Okay this is my third attempt to leave a comment. Don't know what is happening to them.
I will be the odd person here in regards to the you decide.
I would definitely only call preflop. You are looking for the odds to make your set at that point which you in fact have with so many limpers. And a raise at that point would get callers. You want to limit the field on a hand like AK not 99. As for the post flop. With that board you may be in the lead. To find out and/or to see if you can make your hand for the least investment. I suggest a check/raise. This will give you more information and help you to keep your additional investment to $4. If you get reraised after the check/raise, then fold. If you get a caller, you can check/fold if you don't make your set. At that point, you need to believe you are behind with only 2 outs, so a 22 to 1 underdog. The pot odds at the turn would be 3.25 based on the $8 for $26 that you stated. Am I totally lost? How does that give you the odds to call at that point? That is where I would drop the hand.
On another subject. Switching sides to the ROW? What is wrong with you? I mean do they even want you on their team? Its not like your track record in blogger SnG games is that great..lol..just messing with ya..You kinda set yourself up for that one. You belong on the USA team. We are a USA team...We need to stick together...WIN or LOSE. Besides, you switch can only have an unfavorable result. If you switch and the ROW team loses, you will be known as the Jinx. On the other hand, if they win, you will be the USA trader. Is this the kind of reputation you want? Think about it. Then get back on the side where you belong. We will support you even if you suck. Be proud of being a part of the USA team. And don't make me have to have this talk again!
- At 1:06 PM, dnasty13 said...
I agree with wonka that the check on the turn was a bad move, even if you are planning on check calling. Check calling tells you nothing about his hand and you are looking for information. If I was playing and I checked the turn, folding would be my next move. Following Wonkas stragety gets more information with that turn card and makes the fold obvious if he raises. If he doesnt raise, you are paying the same amount as you did by check calling.
Forgive me if my hand analysis comments suck...as you can see in my blog, hand analysis isnt something I do in writing often.
- At 1:11 PM, Jordan from HighOnPoker said...
Sorry, Veneno. TripJax installed a state-of-the-art Crappy Comment Catcher. Apparently your earlier commetns weren't up to snuff. It ain't my fault your comments were crappy!
- At 5:13 PM, Veneno said...
I didn't realize there was a comment standard for your blog...figures my comments are not up to par..lol